My non-debate experience
So yesterday, by no choice of my own, I was asked the question that belivers everywhere dread being asked. You all know what one I'm talking about...or at least one of the top five, including questions regarding The Trinity,The Literal Bible, Creation vs. Evolution, Heaven and Hell, and my own personal worst nightmare "If there's a God, why does He allow us to suffer?" The typical Why do bad things happen to good people conundrum. This time it had a bit of a different spin on it, for the friend who asked it is African, from Ethiopia and asked with great fervor, "If there is a God why does he favor North America and leave Africa to suffer, fighting wars and poverty?" with the added cherry of "And why is God a man, when the giver of life is woman?" I was, of course, seized with blind panic, knowing that any answer I gave off the top of my head would sound contrived and would be ineffective to answer his question. To top it off, he was looking for a debate, being very enthused at the idea of beating me at a debate.
This is something I have continually struggled with as a believer. I find that every single religious debate that I've ever been involved in, or overheard, is a lose-lose situation. Either it serves to alienate the person by the hardline and heated responses given in a moment of tension and passion, or neither person is able to make the other see their point, as they are both emotionally charged and breathing fire. Over the past few years I've contented myself to leave the debating to those who enjoy it as sport, and convieniently have to go to the bathroom every said debates spring up.
This, however, was different. I was faced with a choice. I am the only Christian in my office where these questions were being asked, there was no one to bale me out. I told my friend that probably no matter what answer I gave, he would not accept it, and also told him of my decision not to debate due to the futility of it. Surprisingly he agreed, and I breathed for the first time in 4 minutes (or so it felt). Now comes the choice. I was almost content to leave the conversation at that. He seemed satisfied in my response, and yet I knew that these questions would continue to fuel his frustration if they remained unadressed. I must say that I am sickened that after being a believer for so long I still face blind panic everytime I am faced with a tough question. I think though, in my defense, that some of this panic is generated from failed conversations in the past where I faced impossible debates, and came out looking like a snake taming fundamentalist. I said a quick prayer reminding God of the verse in Acts about receiving the necessary words at the necessary time, and spent the next 10 minutes writing out my response (I always feel more confident on paper) while trying to look like the dedicated employee that I'm not.
Here's what I said:
"My answer to your question has a few parts. First of all, please do not think that I haven't wrestled with those exact questions many times myself, and I can admit that I don't understand, and I get angry at God when I see people suffer as well, and it's ok to be angry.
Our relationship with God is similar to the relationship of a parent to a child. When we were created God was so in love with us that he placed us in a paradise, with everything we needed to survive, but like any parent He gave us the opportunity to choose our own path - for what are we, individually, without the freedom to choose. When we wanted to see what was beyond that paradise and gain knowledge to rival God's He allowed us that choice, but it also distanced us from Him in a way that caused us to experience pain and suffering. We gained knowledge that we were not designed to know (ex: the effect of the differences between gender) which is why we refer to God as a "Him" God is above gender, just as He is beyond time, but our minds do not have an understanding or a comprehension of that, thus God is referred to as the dominant gender of the time, which was "He"
As for the suffering of Africa I cannot say why they suffer so much political unrest, famine and poverty, but I can say that African people are blessed with some of the BEST personalities and genuine character traits that I have ever seen. And while they suffer famine and fight wars against poverty, we suffer depression, suicide and unthankfulness. Our nations God is every nations God and the suffering of one nation, though much more visible weighs on His heart as much.
I cannot answer the question of Why does God not smooth the unrest of Africa, or the middle east, or the blood thirst of the USA. I wish I knew how to tell you why we suffer. All I know is that we suffer either way, and I'd rather suffer for Him and with Him (or Her) than do it alone.
This response is not meant to convince you of anything, as you are certainly entitled to your own beliefs, but you asked me and it was important to me to take the time to give you my answer and what is behind it, whether it's acceptable or not.
Thanks"
OK, so I need your input, is there anything I missed? I was going completely on what God gave me in the moment that I needed it, but I am still a little unsure. He asked me when he took the response home with him if he could come back with an argument, and I said by all means, though I may not respond. All he said when I came in this morning was that the respsone "was deep" and that I should be a writer - YAY AFFIRMATION! :-)
So thoughts, commetns are welcome. Thank you for reading all of that. :-D
This is something I have continually struggled with as a believer. I find that every single religious debate that I've ever been involved in, or overheard, is a lose-lose situation. Either it serves to alienate the person by the hardline and heated responses given in a moment of tension and passion, or neither person is able to make the other see their point, as they are both emotionally charged and breathing fire. Over the past few years I've contented myself to leave the debating to those who enjoy it as sport, and convieniently have to go to the bathroom every said debates spring up.
This, however, was different. I was faced with a choice. I am the only Christian in my office where these questions were being asked, there was no one to bale me out. I told my friend that probably no matter what answer I gave, he would not accept it, and also told him of my decision not to debate due to the futility of it. Surprisingly he agreed, and I breathed for the first time in 4 minutes (or so it felt). Now comes the choice. I was almost content to leave the conversation at that. He seemed satisfied in my response, and yet I knew that these questions would continue to fuel his frustration if they remained unadressed. I must say that I am sickened that after being a believer for so long I still face blind panic everytime I am faced with a tough question. I think though, in my defense, that some of this panic is generated from failed conversations in the past where I faced impossible debates, and came out looking like a snake taming fundamentalist. I said a quick prayer reminding God of the verse in Acts about receiving the necessary words at the necessary time, and spent the next 10 minutes writing out my response (I always feel more confident on paper) while trying to look like the dedicated employee that I'm not.
Here's what I said:
"My answer to your question has a few parts. First of all, please do not think that I haven't wrestled with those exact questions many times myself, and I can admit that I don't understand, and I get angry at God when I see people suffer as well, and it's ok to be angry.
Our relationship with God is similar to the relationship of a parent to a child. When we were created God was so in love with us that he placed us in a paradise, with everything we needed to survive, but like any parent He gave us the opportunity to choose our own path - for what are we, individually, without the freedom to choose. When we wanted to see what was beyond that paradise and gain knowledge to rival God's He allowed us that choice, but it also distanced us from Him in a way that caused us to experience pain and suffering. We gained knowledge that we were not designed to know (ex: the effect of the differences between gender) which is why we refer to God as a "Him" God is above gender, just as He is beyond time, but our minds do not have an understanding or a comprehension of that, thus God is referred to as the dominant gender of the time, which was "He"
As for the suffering of Africa I cannot say why they suffer so much political unrest, famine and poverty, but I can say that African people are blessed with some of the BEST personalities and genuine character traits that I have ever seen. And while they suffer famine and fight wars against poverty, we suffer depression, suicide and unthankfulness. Our nations God is every nations God and the suffering of one nation, though much more visible weighs on His heart as much.
I cannot answer the question of Why does God not smooth the unrest of Africa, or the middle east, or the blood thirst of the USA. I wish I knew how to tell you why we suffer. All I know is that we suffer either way, and I'd rather suffer for Him and with Him (or Her) than do it alone.
This response is not meant to convince you of anything, as you are certainly entitled to your own beliefs, but you asked me and it was important to me to take the time to give you my answer and what is behind it, whether it's acceptable or not.
Thanks"
OK, so I need your input, is there anything I missed? I was going completely on what God gave me in the moment that I needed it, but I am still a little unsure. He asked me when he took the response home with him if he could come back with an argument, and I said by all means, though I may not respond. All he said when I came in this morning was that the respsone "was deep" and that I should be a writer - YAY AFFIRMATION! :-)
So thoughts, commetns are welcome. Thank you for reading all of that. :-D
posted by Rach at 10:11 AM
6 Comments:
Hi, Rach. Good response, way to listen to God! Prayer opens doors (and provides words), as your co-worker's response seems to indicate :)
::hugs::
As tough as it is to take sometimes the way we have it is the only possible way. The only other alternative would be for Him to take total control over every individual and I don't see non-Christians, who ask why God allows suffering, desiring God to give over all freedoms to God.
In God's allowing us free will (there's another top 5 Christian debate) there is an inherant potential for disobedience and for suffering, butthis suffering is not "caused" by God. Why do we always forget this. When people in Africa suffer because of war or poverty it is people who cause war and poverty. When a woman gets raped in an alley it's not God who does it. "But why doesn't God stop the rapist?" people ask. And now we are back to free will. The rapist has a choice to rape or not (as do we all) just as I have the choice to lie, cheat, steal, kill, disobey, etc.
While we have freedom to choose we have freedom to choose incorrectly.
Wow, tough conversation. I honnestly have no wisdom to impart on this. When it comes down to it, I have a very basic naive faith. Over the past few years i've come to realise that I have no idea what the big picture is and that God is working in ways my little brain cannot understand. I did hear a great quote that said "Expecting that nothing bad will happen to you because you are a good person is like expecting a bull not to charge you because you are a vegetarian"
When we look at the civil unrest everywhere in the world, or the disease, poverty, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, we are looking at the pressure caused by the weight of thousands and thousands of years of sin multiplied by billions and billions of people. Have you ever seen an eighty-year old miner? They are stooped, bowlegged, gnarled, and lopsided. They groan getting out of bed in the morning, move slowly and painfully all day and groan getting back into bed at night. That's just fifty or so years of hard labour displayed on the frame of only one man. That is just the effect of something as paltry as hard physical labour. Imagine the result of sin, spread across thousands of cultures, over thousands of years, across billions of people since the beginning of time. Can any of this be surprising. I'm not trying to be trite and just say that we deserve the shitty things that happen to us. Sin is a real force, as real as gravity, heat or magnetism. We are simply seeing the results of a history of estrangment from our Maker and Master. It cements the idea that we are not made for this; just the fact that you can look at it, know that it is bad, tells us that we have the innate sense of what things SHOULD be like. That is the image of God.
See, I get that, I TOTALLY get that, and that is the answer that springs to mind immediately when somebody asks me that question, that is why I hate it so much. That answer is not gentle enough to tell somebody who is in so much pain due to sin and doesn't understand why. Why do the good things get attributed to God and the bad things aren't from him? he asks. Why do people asks to be delivered from sin and God chooses to deliver them or allows them to suffer through? he says, What is the criteria for that deliverance? There is no point in telling him that because he smokes his joints on the weekend and sleeps with numerous women he suffers, and because he lives in a world of people that do the same everyday and much much more, and that because EVERY SINGLE PERSON that he knows contributes to the sin pile every day, he suffers that much more. That is not a gentle enough way to tell him that we are wrong. There has to be love first and that realization will come. It will come when God moves his heart. Thus...my dilemma.
Not only that but the poor 80 year-old minor can't even get into a bar. What do bars have against people who dig? It must be sin.
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